By Genaro Shaffer, Bellwether Real Estate — Updated May 2026
When the bank says no, I find another way.
That sentence is the foundation of my real estate practice. Most agents have a small handful of seller-financed deals on their resume — maybe one or two ever. After 11 years and 67+ closed transactions, seller financing in some form has been part of roughly a quarter of my buyer-side transactions. It’s a real path that bank-only agents don’t talk about because they don’t know how to structure it.
This page is the complete guide to seller financing in Whatcom County — what it is, when it works, who it serves, the common structures, the tax implications, the risks for both sides, and how I actually run these transactions.
Important upfront: this is real estate guidance, not legal or tax advice. Every seller-financed deal should involve a real estate attorney + CPA. The content below is broadly accurate but specific transactions require professional review.
The 90-second answer
Seller financing means the seller — not a bank — acts as the lender. The buyer makes payments to the seller (instead of to a bank) over time. The most common structures are: (1) owner financing / seller carryback — where the seller carries the mortgage; (2) lease-option / lease-purchase — where the buyer leases first with an option/obligation to buy; (3) contract-for-deed / land contract — where the seller retains title until the buyer pays in full. Each works for different buyer + seller situations.
Who it serves: buyers who don’t fit traditional bank underwriting — self-employed with complex tax returns, small business owners, recent W-2 changes, recent immigrants without US credit history, buyers recovering from past credit events, strong-income buyers with non-standard income types (commission, contractor, sales bonuses).
Why sellers participate: tax advantages (spreading capital gains across years), higher net return (interest rate premium vs market mortgage rates), enables sale that wouldn’t otherwise happen.
Why this matters in 2026: higher interest rate environment + tighter bank underwriting standards = more buyers locked out of traditional financing. Seller financing fills that gap.
If that matches your situation — read on. The detailed version is below.
What is seller financing, in plain English
In a traditional home purchase:
- Buyer goes to a bank
- Bank evaluates buyer’s income, credit, assets
- Bank approves a loan
- At closing, bank pays the seller the full purchase price
- Buyer owes the bank for 15-30 years; monthly payments go to the bank
In seller financing:
- Buyer talks directly with the seller (often through agents)
- They negotiate terms — price, down payment, interest rate, length, monthly payment, balloon (if any)
- At closing, buyer pays seller a down payment; receives a deed or contract
- Buyer makes monthly payments directly to the seller (or escrow agent serving both)
- Seller becomes the lender; buyer pays seller for the agreed length
That’s the framework. The specific legal structures vary, and that’s where the complexity lives.
Why this matters in 2026
The current real estate environment has created a meaningful gap between buyer demand and bank-approved buyer pool:
1. Tighter underwriting since 2022. Post-COVID lending environments have made it harder for non-W-2 buyers to qualify. Banks scrutinize self-employment income more aggressively.
2. Higher interest rates. From 3-4% historical lows to 6-8% current. Some buyers who qualify can no longer afford the monthly payment.
3. Self-employed economy growth. The percentage of US workers who are self-employed, freelance, gig, or commission-based has grown. Traditional W-2 mortgage underwriting wasn’t designed for this population.
4. Recent W-2 changes more common. Layoffs, job switches, returning to work after caregiving — all create 2-year income history gaps that banks penalize.
5. Crypto + alternative wealth. Some buyers have significant net worth but in non-traditional forms (crypto, equity in private startups, art, collectibles) that banks don’t underwrite easily.
6. Recovery from past credit events. Foreclosure or bankruptcy 2+ years ago can sit on credit reports for 7-10 years. Traditional banks frequently reject; seller financing can work earlier.
7. Recent immigration without US credit. Newcomers to the US frequently don’t have established US credit history. Traditional banks penalize “thin file” applicants.
In each of these cases, seller financing can bridge the gap. The seller becomes the lender; the bank’s underwriting box doesn’t apply.
My background (and why this is my specialty)
Before I got my real estate license (11 years ago), I was a mortgage broker. I spent years on the bank side of these transactions — learning how underwriters think, which lenders bend on which criteria, what red flags trigger immediate rejections, where the actual flexibility lives.
That experience is the most useful piece of my current job. When a self-employed buyer’s tax returns come across my desk, I can look at them and within 5 minutes know: (a) which conventional lender might still work, (b) which portfolio lender to try, or (c) whether seller financing is the realistic path. Most agents skip step (a) and step (b) because they don’t know the mortgage side well enough.
When the bank truly says no, I move to structuring the seller-financed transaction. I’ve structured deals using owner financing, lease-option, contract-for-deed, hybrid bank-plus-seller, and a few less-common structures. Each requires careful contract drafting (always with a real estate attorney involved), careful tax planning (always with a CPA involved), and careful seller education (most sellers have never heard of this and need walking through).
I take pride in the fact that I can close transactions other agents can’t. That’s the seller-financing moat.
Who seller financing serves (buyer profiles)
The buyer profiles I work with on seller-financing deals:
Profile 1: Self-employed with complex tax returns
You own a business. Your tax returns show significant deductions, depreciation, business losses, or pass-through income that makes traditional underwriting hard. Your actual cash flow is strong but your “qualifying income” per Fannie/Freddie standards is much lower than reality.
Traditional banks: often reject or require very high down payments.
Seller financing: the seller (with my help) evaluates your actual cash flow, your business history, your character. They can offer terms that bank can’t.
Profile 2: Small business owner
You’ve been running a successful small business in Bellingham for years. You have strong revenue but lots of business write-offs. Banks see your net income and reject.
Seller financing: your character + your local business reputation + your bank statements showing cash flow are the underwriting criteria. Bellwether-area sellers often appreciate that you’re a real local business owner.
Profile 3: Recent W-2 change
You just changed jobs. Or got promoted. Or returned to work after a caregiver gap. Or were laid off and have new employment. Or started a new W-2 role.
Banks: typically require 2 years of consistent W-2 income history.
Seller financing: a thoughtful seller can evaluate your new income + your character + your professional trajectory. Terms can be structured to fit.
Profile 4: Recent immigrant without US credit
You moved to the US recently for work, marriage, or other reasons. You have significant income and assets in your home country but no US credit history yet.
Banks: typically reject “thin file” applicants regardless of foreign credit history.
Seller financing: your foreign credit + your US income + character references work as underwriting. Many of my cross-border BC buyers (and other international buyers) use seller financing for this reason.
Profile 5: Recovering from past credit events
You had a foreclosure or bankruptcy 2-5 years ago. You’ve rebuilt income and savings since. But traditional banks still see the event on your credit report.
Banks: typically require 4-7 years post-foreclosure (depending on loan type).
Seller financing: a thoughtful seller can evaluate your current situation rather than your historical event.
Profile 6: Strong income, non-standard income type
You earn $300K/year on commission. Or your income is 70% bonus-based. Or you have stock + RSU income that fluctuates. Or you’re a contractor with strong gross receipts but no W-2.
Banks: often require averaging 2-year historical income, which understates your current earning capacity.
Seller financing: the seller can evaluate your actual income + your professional reputation + your savings.
Profile 7: Investor + cash-strong buyer
You sold a business or had a large stock event and have significant cash. You don’t need a mortgage. You want to buy a primary or investment property.
Banks: sometimes complicated (where did the cash come from? was it taxed? do you have W-2 income to qualify?).
Seller financing: cash-strong buyers + sellers willing to carry a partial note often structure favorable hybrid deals.
Who seller financing doesn’t serve
Honest limits:
- First-time buyers with marginal credit + small down payment + traditional W-2 income → traditional FHA/VA/conventional usually works better
- Buyers expecting to flip the home within 2 years → financing complications often don’t justify the structure
- Buyers who can’t make a meaningful down payment → most sellers require 10-25% down to participate
- Buyers without proven income from any source → seller financing isn’t a loan to people who can’t pay; it’s an alternative structure for people who can pay but don’t fit bank criteria
If you’re not sure whether you fit a seller-financing buyer profile: call me. A 15-minute conversation will tell us.
Why sellers participate
Buyers always wonder: “why would the seller do this?” Several reasons.
Tax advantages (Installment Sale Treatment)
Under IRS Section 453, a seller who finances a buyer can spread capital gains tax across the years they receive payments rather than paying it all in the sale year. For a seller with significant capital gains:
- Full lump-sum sale: pay capital gains tax on all of it in one tax year (potentially at higher bracket)
- Seller-financed installment sale: spread capital gains across 5-20 years (potentially at lower bracket each year)
This is often a meaningful tax benefit, especially for sellers with built-up gains in long-held properties.
Higher interest rate return
Seller-financed mortgages typically carry interest rates 1-2% higher than market bank rates. The seller becomes a long-term income stream at 7-9% interest rather than getting a lump sum to invest elsewhere.
For sellers in retirement: this can be more attractive than the equivalent investment alternatives.
Faster sale at higher price
In a slower market, sellers willing to offer financing have a larger buyer pool. They often sell faster + at higher prices than equivalent cash-only listings.
Enables a sale that wouldn’t otherwise happen
Some homes are difficult to sell to traditional buyers — older homes with deferred maintenance, properties with unusual features, homes in slower segments. Seller financing brings buyers the seller might not otherwise reach.
Estate / legacy planning
For older sellers, seller financing can create a steady income stream + a structured asset transfer. Some sellers use it as part of estate planning.
Common structures
The four most common seller-financing structures in Washington:
Structure 1: Owner Financing (Seller Carryback)
The seller carries the mortgage. At closing, the buyer pays a down payment and gives the seller a promissory note + deed of trust. The seller is the lender; the buyer makes monthly payments to the seller for the loan term.
Mechanics:
- Buyer receives full warranty deed (becomes legal owner)
- Buyer signs promissory note for the balance
- Buyer grants a deed of trust to secure the note
- Monthly payments include principal + interest
- Term typically 15-30 years OR shorter with balloon at end
Pros:
- Simple, clean structure
- Buyer becomes legal owner immediately (gets all ownership rights)
- Seller is secured by the property (can foreclose if buyer defaults)
Cons:
- Buyer responsible for property taxes + insurance directly
- Seller has long-term tax + payment management
- Refinancing later requires new bank loan (which may have qualifying issues)
Structure 2: Lease-Option / Lease-Purchase
The buyer leases the property with an option (or obligation) to buy at a fixed price at the end of the lease.
Mechanics:
- Lease typically 1-5 years
- Tenant pays monthly rent (often including premium that goes toward future down payment)
- Tenant has option to purchase at a pre-agreed price
- Tenant typically pays a non-refundable option fee at lease start
- Tenant typically responsible for ongoing maintenance + insurance
- At lease end: tenant either purchases (often with traditional financing if they’ve qualified by then) OR walks away
Pros:
- Lower entry barrier (option fee + monthly rent vs immediate down payment)
- Time for buyer to qualify for traditional financing later
- Buyer can “try out” the home + neighborhood
Cons:
- If buyer doesn’t qualify at lease end: lose option fee + accumulated rent premium
- Seller maintains ownership during lease term
- Different legal mechanics — more like landlord-tenant than seller-buyer
Structure 3: Contract-for-Deed / Land Contract
The seller retains legal title to the property until the buyer pays in full. The buyer takes equitable title and full possession; legal title transfers at end of payment term.
Mechanics:
- Buyer takes possession + has all rights of ownership except legal title
- Buyer makes monthly payments per contract terms
- Seller retains legal title until buyer pays in full or refinances out
- Buyer typically responsible for property taxes + insurance + maintenance
- Default mechanics differ from foreclosure (seller can typically retain payments made + reclaim property more quickly)
Pros:
- Faster + lower-cost transaction than owner financing
- Quicker remedy for seller if buyer defaults
- Can work when buyer has minimal cash
Cons:
- Washington has specific consumer protection rules on contracts for deed (RCW 61.30)
- Less protection for buyer than owner financing or lease-option
- Buyer doesn’t get legal title for years
- Can be more complex on refinance
Critical Washington-specific point: Washington has detailed legal requirements for contracts for deed (real estate contracts) under RCW 61.30. They include cure periods, foreclosure notice requirements, and specific buyer protections that must be followed. Always work with a Washington-licensed real estate attorney on contracts for deed.
Structure 4: Hybrid Bank + Seller Financing
Some transactions combine a traditional first-position bank mortgage with a smaller seller-financed second position. The buyer gets, say, 70% from a bank + 20% from the seller + 10% buyer cash.
Mechanics:
- First-position bank mortgage (smaller than 100% of purchase price)
- Second-position seller carryback for the remaining gap
- Buyer cash for the down payment
- Two payment streams (to bank + to seller) OR consolidated through escrow
Pros:
- Reduces seller’s risk + cash tied up
- Leverages buyer’s bank approval at lower loan-to-value
- Can bridge gaps when bank loan amount is insufficient for purchase
Cons:
- Requires bank to allow second-position seller financing (not all do)
- More complex structuring + paperwork
- Two payment streams to manage
Less common structures (with caveats)
- Subject-to financing — buyer takes ownership “subject to” existing seller mortgage; bank may invoke due-on-sale clause. Risky without expert legal involvement.
- Wraparound mortgage — new seller-buyer note “wraps around” existing seller mortgage. Complex; due-on-sale risk; rare.
- All-inclusive trust deed (AITD) — California concept; possible in WA but unusual.
These structures exist but carry higher risk + complexity. Not for typical transactions.
Terms typically negotiated
Whatever structure you choose, these terms get negotiated:
Interest rate
Typically 1-3% above current market bank rates. As of 2026 with bank rates around 6.5-7%, seller-financed rates often run 7.5-9%.
Down payment
10-25% typical. Some structures allow lower (lease-option with significant option fee); some require higher (seller’s preference).
Loan term
- Short: 5-7 years with balloon at end (buyer refinances or sells)
- Medium: 15 years amortizing
- Long: 30 years amortizing
- Custom: any term the parties agree to
Balloon clauses
Many seller-financed loans have a balloon payment at year 5, 7, or 10 — buyer pays remaining balance in full at that point (typically by refinancing with a traditional bank).
Prepayment terms
Some sellers want a prepayment penalty (to protect their interest income); some don’t.
Default + cure provisions
- Grace period before default declared
- Cure period to catch up before foreclosure proceeds
- Specific WA legal requirements (foreclosure mechanics, deed of trust)
Property tax + insurance
- Buyer responsibility typically; sometimes seller-escrowed
- Documentation requirements (proof of payment)
Insurance + casualty
- Required carrier + amounts
- Buyer obligation to maintain
Inspection + closing details
- Same as any transaction; both sides should inspect + use title insurance
Tax implications (briefly)
This requires professional advice; broad strokes only:
For sellers
- Installment Sale (Section 453): capital gains tax spread across years payments are received
- Interest income taxable as ordinary income each year
- Depreciation recapture still applies in installment year
- Required: CPA advice before transaction; significant planning opportunities
For buyers
- Mortgage interest typically deductible same as bank mortgage (subject to current law)
- Property tax deductible same as any owner
- Recordkeeping critical — keep all payment records, amortization schedule
- CPA advice recommended
Risks (honest version)
Risks for buyers
- Sellers can have title issues — clean title verification critical
- Sellers can have liens or mortgages of their own — must verify ability to convey title
- Default + foreclosure mechanics in Washington require careful contract drafting
- Refinance at balloon date may be impossible if interest rates rise or buyer’s financial situation deteriorates
- Insurance + repair obligations clearly defined to avoid disputes
- Bank’s due-on-sale clause (for subject-to or wraparound structures) is a legal risk
Risks for sellers
- Buyer default — even with deed of trust, foreclosure takes time + costs money
- Payment delays — long-term cash flow management
- Property damage — buyer maintenance neglect can erode property value
- Tax timing — installment sale rules complex; CPA essential
- Bankruptcy of buyer — could complicate or delay remedies
- Long-term commitment — seller becomes a lender for years; not a passive investment
Mitigation
For every risk, there’s a contract provision + due diligence step that addresses it. The right team — broker, real estate attorney, CPA — manages risks effectively. Going DIY on seller financing is the most common mistake.
The Genaro process (how I run these)
When I represent either side on a seller-financed deal, here’s my process:
Phase 1: Qualification (45-60 min)
For buyers: I review your situation — income type, tax returns, credit history, savings, intended use of property. We determine if seller financing is the realistic path or if traditional financing should be re-attempted first.
For sellers: I review your situation — financial goals, tax situation, risk tolerance, timing flexibility. We determine if you’re a candidate for offering seller financing on your listing.
Phase 2: Matching
For buyers: I identify suitable properties + sellers open to financing structures. Not every listing accepts seller financing; I know which sellers might be open + can broach the conversation.
For sellers: I market your listing with explicit “seller financing available” positioning. This expands your buyer pool significantly.
Phase 3: Initial Terms Negotiation
We negotiate the broad terms — price, structure type, down payment, interest rate, length, balloon. Both sides leave with a non-binding terms sheet.
Phase 4: Professional Team Engagement
I require both sides to engage:
- Real estate attorney (Washington-licensed)
- CPA (familiar with installment sales)
- Title company (for title commitment review)
I have referral lists for each. Engaging early prevents expensive surprises later.
Phase 5: Contract Drafting
The real estate attorney drafts the purchase contract + financing documents (note, deed of trust, deed). I coordinate; both attorneys review; revisions iterate until both sides comfortable.
Phase 6: Due Diligence
Standard inspection + appraisal + title work, same as any transaction. Buyer protection priorities: clean title, accurate amortization schedule, clear default + cure provisions.
Phase 7: Closing
Title company handles closing. Documents recorded with Whatcom County. Payment terms commence per contract.
Phase 8: Ongoing
For buyers: I stay available throughout the loan term for refinance questions, payment dispute resolution, market timing for early payoff strategies.
For sellers: I stay available for receipt management, default response, and eventual title-transfer when buyer pays off.
Washington-specific considerations
Washington has specific laws affecting seller-financed transactions:
RCW 61.30 (Real Estate Contract Forfeitures)
Detailed requirements for contracts for deed including:
- Specific notice requirements before forfeiture
- Cure periods buyer must be granted
- Specific document language
- Court involvement in disputed forfeitures
Foreclosure mechanics
Deed of trust foreclosure (non-judicial) is the standard mechanism for owner-financed loans in WA. The Department of Financial Institutions (DFI) provides guidance; most lenders use professional foreclosure trustees.
Dodd-Frank limitations
Federal Dodd-Frank rules limit how many seller-financed loans an individual can originate without becoming a licensed loan originator. For most individual sellers carrying back on their own residence sale, the exemptions apply. For repeat sellers or investors, professional licensing may be required.
REET on seller-financed sales
WA REET is paid at closing on the full sale price, regardless of whether seller financing applies. There’s no exemption for seller-financed sales.
Disclosure (Form 17)
Same seller disclosure form (Form 17) applies whether traditional or seller-financed.
Buyer’s right to inspection
Same buyer inspection rights apply.
Recommended: Washington-licensed real estate attorney
Every seller-financed transaction in Washington should involve a WA-licensed real estate attorney experienced in these structures. The cost (typically $2,000-$5,000) is meaningful but prevents expensive mistakes.
Common mistakes (and how to avoid them)
After 11 years of these transactions:
Mistake 1: Skipping legal counsel
Both buyers + sellers occasionally try to do these deals without lawyers to save money. The eventual cost of bad contracts dwarfs the legal fees saved.
Mistake 2: Inadequate title verification
Buyers must verify the seller can convey clean title. Sellers must verify they can carry the financing without unwinding their own mortgages.
Mistake 3: Sloppy amortization schedules
Errors in monthly payment calculations or amortization schedules create disputes years later. Hire a CPA or licensed professional to verify the math.
Mistake 4: Vague default + cure provisions
“What happens if buyer is 30 days late?” must be explicitly answered in writing. Vague provisions lead to lawsuits.
Mistake 5: Ignoring Dodd-Frank rules
For repeat sellers carrying multiple loans, federal originator licensing requirements may apply. Verify with a real estate attorney.
Mistake 6: Wrong tax treatment
Sellers who don’t structure for installment sale treatment lose significant tax planning value. CPA essential.
Mistake 7: Failing to track payments
Both parties should keep meticulous records — every payment, every interest accrual, every escrow balance. Disputes 5 years in are common; documentation prevents them.
Mistake 8: Inadequate insurance
Buyer-side property insurance + casualty coverage + liability — all required. Lapses can trigger defaults or expose seller to risk.
Mistake 9: Misunderstanding the property tax obligation
Buyer is typically responsible for property tax; seller should require proof of payment annually.
Mistake 10: Not planning for the balloon
Buyers who don’t plan for a balloon payment 5-7 years out get caught when refinancing falls through. Have a Plan B.
Frequently asked
Is seller financing legal in Washington? Yes. It’s been used for decades in Washington. Specific structures (especially contract for deed) have detailed legal requirements under WA law that should be followed carefully.
Do I need good credit for seller financing? Not necessarily — that’s the whole point. Sellers can underwrite based on your overall situation (income, character, savings, reputation) rather than just credit scores.
What down payment do I need? Usually 10-25%. Lower for lease-option structures; higher for owner financing.
Can I refinance out of seller financing later? Yes — common pattern. Buyers often use seller financing as a 3-7 year bridge while their financial situation stabilizes, then refinance into a traditional mortgage.
Will the seller want to see my tax returns? Probably. Sellers underwrite buyers like banks do, just with more flexibility. Expect to share 2-3 years of tax returns + bank statements + income documentation.
How do I find a seller willing to do seller financing? Through me. Most sellers haven’t considered it; I evaluate which listings are candidates + broach the conversation with sellers on your behalf.
Can the seller back out after we agree on seller financing? Once the purchase contract is signed: same as any transaction; seller can’t back out without breach. Before contract: yes, either side can walk away.
What if I’m late on a payment? The contract should specify grace periods + cure periods. Common: 10-day grace period before late fee, 30-day cure period before default declared, 60-90 day cure period before foreclosure proceedings.
Are seller-financed homes more expensive? Sometimes slightly. Sellers willing to finance may price slightly higher to compensate for the risk + tax + long-term commitment they’re taking on.
Can I do this in Whatcom County specifically? Yes. Whatcom County has reasonably active seller-financed market. Smaller Whatcom cities (Lynden, Ferndale, Blaine) have particularly community-oriented seller pools open to creative structures.
Can you walk me through whether I’m a fit? Yes — that’s the first call. 30 minutes, no obligation, we figure out together if this is the right path.
What’s the cost of seller-financed deal closing? Typically: title insurance + escrow + recording (similar to traditional). Plus legal fees ($2K-$5K) for the attorney drafting + reviewing. Plus CPA fees if you don’t already have one ($500-$2K). Higher than traditional purchase legal costs but small relative to the deal size.
Does seller financing affect property taxes? Property tax obligations transfer to the buyer at closing same as any sale. Whatcom County reassesses periodically.
Can I use seller financing for an investment property? Yes — and common. Investors often use seller financing to scale faster than bank lending allows. Tax treatment differs (no primary residence exclusion); CPA advice essential.
What about for a self-employed buyer with crypto income? Possible but complex. Sellers and CPAs vary on comfort with crypto income; documentation requirements stricter. Call to discuss specifics.
Are there caps on how much seller financing I can do? Federal Dodd-Frank rules limit individual sellers to a few loans per year without licensed-originator status. For one-off home sellers carrying back on their own residence: typically no issue. For repeat investors: licensing may apply.
Talk to Genaro about seller financing
If you’re at the “the bank said no” stage — or you suspect you would be — let’s talk. 30 minutes on the phone will determine if seller financing is the realistic path for your situation.
If you’re a seller wondering whether you should offer seller financing as part of your listing strategy — let’s talk about whether your situation fits.
📞 (360) 389-6616 — call or text ✉️ genaro@bellwetherrealestate.com — email 📩 Contact form
For broader buyer-side context: Buying a Home in Bellingham. For broader seller-side context: Sell Your Bellingham Home. For the broader relocation context: Moving to Bellingham.
Important disclaimers
This is real estate guidance, not legal or tax advice. Every seller-financed transaction should involve:
- A Washington-licensed real estate attorney experienced in seller financing
- A CPA familiar with installment sales + cross-border tax (if applicable)
- A title company with experience in seller-financed transactions
The content above is broadly accurate but specific transactions require professional review.
Federal Dodd-Frank rules apply to seller-financed loans. Most individual sellers carrying back on their own residence sale qualify for exemptions; repeat sellers / investors may require licensed loan originator status.
Washington state-specific rules apply (especially RCW 61.30 on contracts for deed). Verify with a WA-licensed attorney.
Don’t go generic — go with Genaro.
Genaro Shaffer · Licensed WA Real Estate Broker #27119 · Bellwether Real Estate · Former mortgage broker · 11+ years selling Whatcom County real estate · 67+ closed transactions · 5.0 stars on Zillow · Seller-financing specialist · Certified Negotiation Expert · FAA-licensed drone pilot 📞 (360) 389-6616 · ✉️ genaro@bellwetherrealestate.com Powered by Bellwether Real Estate · Member NWMLS · Equal Housing Opportunity
When the bank says no, I find another way.